I mean, I wouldn't, like, over state that. I definitely have, like, I definitely have the the anxieties, and I and and, you know, like, I I I yeah. It's it's comp like, I'm not still out there playing hundred and fifty, two hundred shows a year, in in part because, like, life happened in these unexpected ways. Right? Like, I was poised to do a bunch of big things with the the last record and, like, you know, the pandemic hit and wiped out every single plan I had and the partnership. Like, it just it was just, like, crushing. And at the same time, I'm a, you know, survivor, like, deep in my core, and so I I built this, like, virtual broadcast studio in my in my living room, and basically totally transformed my life. And, you know, I I was probably one of the busiest speakers over the course of the, you know, eighteen months of the pandemic, and that totally exploded my the my reach and possibilities for me in the speaking work. And so, you know, it wasn't just that I, like, gave up on music. It was also there was this other opportunity that was just screaming at me of, like, hey. And I was still playing music and storytelling and connecting with people in ways that I found really meaningful. And so it was just, like, evolution that I wasn't anticipating. But it also was more financially stable and, you know, like, I'm sure there were there's variables that are at play inside of me of, like, oh, this work that I do over here is a little more straightforward. And, you know, do I do I enjoy that security at this time in my life? Yes. And maybe to to to agree with you is is I still actually push myself to come back to, alright, like, what do I like, what really lights me up? And and, yes, that work lights me up, and I don't think I can actually do that work authentically and, you know, call myself a speaker or, you know, seek to provide inspiration for people if I'm not also doing the other work over here, which is I know deep in my heart and soul that I always want to be an artist. I always want to make music. And and if I abandon that part of myself, then then I don't really think I deserve to, you know, try to inspire anybody else. And so, you know, I I carry those those tensions inside of me. I I question myself. I ask myself, like, okay. Am I willing to turn down some of the this work over here so that I can have the the time and the energy and the the focus to do the the the artist's work, which, by the way, like, I run the songwriting retreat in the fall, and I I I say to the, you know, songwriters who attend, like, creativity and art, Like, you need to waste time. You need to, like, spend an entire day and chase an idea and then throw it in the garbage. And and and and so that's not always, like, practical, but you need to have the space to be able to, like, waste time and chase something and be curious and not have it turn into anything so that at some point, you can get that little golden nugget that does turn into something. And so I just wanna be honest with people that I hold all of that inside of myself. I question myself. I wonder, did I should I, you know, should I do this? Should I do that? And and so, you know, like any other human being, I I hold that complexity.

Hey. It's Bob, and I'm taking the growth mixtape on the road in a series of live podcast episodes. Imagine a podcast tailored specifically for your company recorded in front of a live audience that would be released as its own episode. These are thoughtful, emotional conversations that help teens who have lost their spark rediscover their curiosity and creativity so they can love work again. Sure. You could do a typical keynote or panel discussion, or you could give your team something they'll never forget. Book me at your next event at bob mathers dot c a. Now back to the show. I wanted to ask about the songwriting retreat, so I was gonna ask later, but let's talk about it now. I'm somebody that's my grandfather bought me a guitar when I was nine. I've played, you know, most of my life. I'm not very good. I'm a campfire enthusiast as I call it. But in all that time, I've never written a song. And it's not because I haven't tried. I sit down and I write a couple lines, and I look down on it and be like, oh, that's garbage. And I throw it out. And I it's this judgment that I that I can't get away from in the moment of creating. It's not like I write a song and look down on it and say that sucks. I don't even finish it because I can't even bear to look at what I'm writing as I'm doing it. And I think that's pretty common. So when you're doing these songwriting retreats, what is the biggest thing that people have to get around? Is it this idea of play? It's like, forget everything that you've learned in work and in life for the last thirty years of do this and then do this and then do this and then do do this and get an outcome. It's like, you're gonna waste a ton of time, and it's gonna be really frustrating. I don't know. I I wanna do it. It's just really uncomfortable.

Yeah. Well, first of all, this songwriting retreat that I run, it like, of all the things I've done in my life, I think it's, like, my favorite thing that I do. And that's a big, big statement for me to say because there's a lot of things that I love to do. But I I literally, almost ten years ago, I was invited to speak at a a retreat in Turks and Caicos, and it was with, you know, all these people that worked in, like, the blockchain and cryptocurrency. You know, like, all these, like, fascinating people. Anyways, long story short, on the final day, there was this opportunity to, like, just offer a session. And so various people at this at this conference, like, sort of said, oh, I can offer a session on this. I can offer a session on this. And I I put my hand up. I was like, oh, I could offer a session on on songwriting. And a hundred percent of the attendees came to my session. And I I ran them through this songwriting experience because I'd when I first took the the leap of faith to to go into songwriting, you know, and being a performer full time, I would go into high schools and run these songwriting workshops to sort of supplement my income, and I'd also do these songwriting workshops when I was on the road in communities. And so I had this this kind of format that I had created. Anyways, I offered this songwriting workshop. People, like, you know, were in tears, and they were sharing so proudly. It was, like, just this beautiful, beautiful moment. And the guy that ran the conference walked up to me and said, you need to run your own songwriting retreat. Like, he's like, you need to take what you did for us today and, like, offer that. And so that seed was planted, and it took me, you know, eight years or whatever it was to finally have the perfect space and and skill set and all the things to be able to do it. But I was like, imagine a songwriting retreat for someone who has always wanted to write a song but doesn't know how, like, exactly like what you just described. And and so I put the call out there. We filled it, like, within seconds, basically. And and it's just the most beautiful experience because no one's there trying to be a professional songwriter or, like, it like, the spirit of it is about the the the the beauty, the challenge, the magic of creating something that doesn't exist yet. And that's what's so hard about songwriting or any kind of creation is, like, you don't know. Like, is it good? Is it done? Is it like, does the second verse like like, no one knows or decides that other than you, and it's super helpful to have a guide on the side sort of holding your hand and walking you through the process. And so in in some ways, that's that's what I do is is there's a whole, like, pre event experience where I'm kinda getting people to to notice, to pay attention, to to to to be writing, to kind of fill up the the the tank with with possibilities. And then they arrive on-site, and I host it, like, at at my cottage on the lake, like, just beautiful setting. And I basically teach them this framework that I I mean, I've never had somebody not write a song, and I'm not just talking about at at my songwriting retreats. I mean, like, I've been running this for twenty years. Like, it always results in a song with this with this framework. So I teach them this framework. We we write the song. The next day, they record the song, and, again, that doesn't need they don't need to be a a singer. They don't need to know how to play an instrument, but it's just, like, being in the studio, making something amazing together. And then on the on the final day, we do this, like, closing ceremony, and it's just so magical where we, like, hear the songs for the first time. And it's it's just it's just the best thing. And and and I I I feel like what I love about it so much is you're giving people this access point to this thing that has felt impossible forever, and yet in their heart and souls, they've always wanted to do it. And the other thing is, like, you're doing it together. Right? So you're you're as as much as I'm there to help them write a song, I'm also there to connect them with each other to to for all of us to feel connected so that we can do this this hard thing together. And, anyways, I'd love to have you there, Bob, next time, so we'll get you a song. Oh, man.

Okay. A couple of things about that. Yeah. You talk about filling up the tank of possibilities. I wanna come back to that too, but it seems like there's all this raw material just sitting underneath the surface, and they just need a space and a little bit of permission and a little bit of coaching. And I can imagine that being really emotional. I wonder if you if it's this if if it's the favorite thing you've ever done, why do you only do it once a year?

Well, I I have, like, a fifteen person waiting list for next year, so I'm I'm I'm going to do more than one next year. It's it's a very, very high touch experience. Mhmm. So, like, it's an an, you know, Rob, the the producer, and I who who I run it with, like, we are all in and very, very, very high touch. And so I I kind of I don't wanna, like, burn myself out on it by by doing it every weekend because I I feel like I want it to be special and and something that I look forward to, and so I could just give my whole energy to it. But we're definitely gonna do it twice next year. And I haven't figured out, like, if there's a format where we could accommodate more people. But, again, I wouldn't wanna sacrifice how high touch and how intimate and how how special it is. So, anyways, I've been I've been reflecting on it just given the the demand and the the interest in it. But for now, we're gonna run two next year and see kinda where it goes from there.

I absolutely will be there. Like, full disclosure, you and I, I you had posted something on LinkedIn about it, and so I responded. And I did have a conflict, but I also looked at it, and I thought, I don't know. That's a little expensive. I'm not sure if I wanna do that. What you just described, I would pay twenty thousand dollars for. Like, that just sounds like what a life I'm sure you hear it all

the time. What a life changing experience that is and to be and to arm people with this

thing that they can take out and do

comment that we we hear on, you know, consistently on the last day is, like, you know, I came here to write a song, but I'm I'm leaving sort of with a different sense of, like, what's possible for me in my life. And and, and so and it it's it's cool because, you know, I I had this idea, like, almost a decade ago, but I I I I, you know, what happened in that time between when I finally did it was, number one, I became certified as a facilitator. So I like, during, the pandemic, I was able to, you know, basically do, like, a master's I didn't it's not called a master's degree, but I, you know, I did thousands of hours of training in in in facilitation work. And so I really knew how to create the container, for the experience. And then, like, during the pandemic, because of of all the work I was able to do virtually, I was able to, you know, get this this cottage, and so I had the perfect space suddenly. And and, you know, it all just kinda came together. I was like, oh, man. I could I could actually pull this off now. And, and so to me, yes, it's it's it's an it's an investment for sure. I I also think it's, like, a steal of a deal in the sense that, like, you know, if someone were to hire me to write a song, it would actually cost twice that versus coming, spending three and a half days, you know, getting fed, being in a beautiful place, and actually writing and recording the song together. So, but, you know, we definitely tried to price it. It's like, okay, how do we, you know, justify the the cost in bringing in, you know, you know, an amazing producer in the space and and my time and all that kind of stuff while also keeping it accessible? So it's like, yes. I'm taking a swing in order to do this, but the the the value really outweighs the the price tag.

Oh, man. I honestly I cannot wait.

I'm gonna be there. Amazing.

So I want to talk about more some of your speaking because Yeah. I know that you really pride yourself in doing some research and talking and gathering stories ahead of a lot of your keynote concerts. By the way, keynote concert. I'm like, as somebody that does speaking myself, I'm like, goddamn. That's fucking brilliant. I wish I had thought of that. Not that I'm as talented as you, but I could've probably figured out how to incorporate some music in there somehow. Anyway, brilliant. When you're doing that, what are the what are the most common challenges that leaders are facing when they bring you in? Like, what are you what are you hearing and how are you think how are you hearing things change in the companies and the leaders that you talk to, and and how do you go about putting together, you know, keynote concerts that get to the heart of some of that stuff?

Yeah. Well, I mean, one thing to say out of the gate is it it is constantly evolving and probably evolving more quickly than than ever before. And so one of my signatures, as a speaker, which, you know, you you alluded to there is is I will I never just, like, open a can and deliver a talk. Every single talk I do, of course, I meet with the leadership or the event planner, you know, whoever's kind of creating the convening, but I also interview some of the people that are gonna be in the audience, and I take their stories. I have a a pretty tight, framework that I've created where in, like, a fifteen minute interview, and I I'll do multiple interviews, I can get at, like, really amazing stories in a in a short period of time. And so I get at all these stories, basically, all these ways that the people within the organization are already living out their mission, vision, values, purpose, and then we actually bring those things to life on stage through through the sharing of those stories. And lo and behold, as you share those stories, you actually reveal the recipes of of of success, and you also create these waves of inspiration throughout the organization that are like these homegrown waves of inspiration. Like, I could I I of course, I do tell some of my own stories, but it's so powerful for people within the organization or within that that industry or whatever it might be to hear stories that they they feel a deep resonance with. But I'm able to sort of package it in a way as, you know, as a professional storyteller and sort of understanding, like, hey. What matters most here and what's being shared and and presenting that in a way that, you know, is hopefully compelling. But then, of course, like you said, there's always different riddles that I'm trying to solve within the organization. So in the in the depth of the pandemic, for example, it was just like, please, please, please, like, help us be connected in any way, shape, or form, or or, you know, I did a ton of work with health care. It it evolved over the course of the pandemic. Like, at the beginning of the pandemic, it was like, hey. Just, you know, love on us. Like, appreciate us. But then at a certain point, it's like a year later, and it's like, yo. We're burning out. We're dying here. Like, you can't just pat us on the head and tell us how great we are. We need actual, like, practical, actionable, you know, research back tools and resources to help us survive this time. So, you know, there was a there's an energetic shift there. And then coming out of the pandemic, I was doing a lot of work with organizations that were navigating, like, hybrid and how are they coming back together and still being connected, but, you know, they're in two days a month or, you know, whatever the different scenarios were within the different organizations. And with some organizations, I I would work with them for, like, a year, and we would run programs and connections and facilitations and over a long period of times. Other times, I'm just coming in, and it's it's more of a kinda one and done. And then coming out of that, there was like, okay. Now it's back to work. Like, we wanna be productive. We wanna get things done. I was like, okay. What's what's the shift there? Now all that said, at my core, you know, I stand for people being connected to each other. I stand for people being you know, showing up with authenticity, with heart. And so I'm only gonna, like, adjust my message so much. Like, there was a period where I was losing a lot of work to people who speak about AI because all of a sudden AI is is is the thing. Like, I'm not gonna all of a sudden start, you know, just giving talks about how to use AI because that's that's not, like, my area of expertise or that's not that's not the road that I've traveled. And so I and that's it. Like, in the age of AI, how do we maintain human connection and and how do we actually maybe human connection is even more valuable than ever before. So you can always sort of position yourself within the context of whatever is happening. But I I I sort of continue to stand for the same things. And, ultimately, I'd like to think, that the things that I stand for are are are evergreen because it's about human experience and being connected and and showing up, you know, connected to a sense of purpose and aligned with your values and and and bringing out kind of the best of what can be, as a as a human being both personally and professionally.

So a couple things about that. One, I think when you talked about mission and vision, I guess what I hear a lot of leaders talk about is, you know, we've got a mission and vision, and what we hear at the bottom is that we don't see our leaders living these values, making decisions in alignment with those things every day. And so there's a lot of disengagement, and I I think what I'm hearing is one of the things you can do is help celebrate the stories of where those things are happening. It's not like we have to start talking about how to live our mission and vision necessarily. It's about how do we celebrate those moments where it's already happening, and those stories are just getting lost in the everyday minutiae of work. And, yeah, they're just lost.

Yeah. That that's something I talk about a lot. And and, you know, I I in in I have a few different keynotes that I give, but when I'm talking about this this idea of it's I call it, like, celebrate what matters. And when I say the word celebrate, I often make this distinction to the audience. I say, hey. You know, people hear the word celebrate, and they think party. Nothing wrong with a great party, but I think we party to forget. We celebrate to remember. And so if you think about you know, we were talking about songwriting earlier, right? What am I doing when I'm writing a song? Well, I'm you you know, you're taking an idea, a feeling, a concept, this invisible thing, and you're saying, hey. This this one matters. Like, this idea, this feeling, this thought matters, and then you turn it into a song. And then once it has the form of a song, then all of a sudden, it can do something in the world. Like, you can send it to someone you love and say, hey. This made me think of you, or a couple can have their first dance to it. Right? And so organizations don't necessarily have songs, but they have all of these ways that people within the organization are actually already living out their mission, vision, and values. There are all these stories that exist, you know, in the in the corners of of of the of the institution. And so what I do is I'm like, hey. This one matters, and this one matters, and this one matters, and we bring those stories to life. We take the invisible. We make it visible just like I do with the song. And, ultimately, what happens is you start to experientially feel what it what it's like to actually be living that that that particular value. And the amazing thing is as people hear stories of, you know, Susan, who, you know, showed up with integrity or whatever that might be, all of a sudden, they're like, oh, I I actually could do that over here in my department, or I I'm so inspired by Susan's story and how, you know, kind she was with that customer that I'm gonna start doing that over here. And so I talk about this idea that we become what we celebrate. So the more that we celebrate stories of our mission, vision, values, and action, we actually the more we become our mission, vision, values, and action. And so in a nutshell, like, that's what I try to do within organizations. And there's a more nuanced discussion. Like, there are, of course, forces that can be, like, destructive towards towards that, like like you just described us having these things stated, but not actually living them. But you can create greater alignment around them by actually just surfacing the moments where it's already occurring.

Yeah. And I imagine there's even some neuroscience around the more that we start doing that celebrating, the more that we notice things and it's and become self fulfilling.

Yeah. You're absolutely right. I mean, there's, you know, one of the approaches that I'm I'm trained in as a facilitator is something called appreciative inquiry. And ultimately, there's a lot to say about that, but it's it's it's about the the sort of quality of the questions and the appreciative lens that we're we're putting on things. And so, you know, again, mountains of research around this. But when we when we can appreciate sort of the best of who we've been, the best of who we are, it tends to be one of the most effective ways for us to create more of that. We're we're actually kind of hardwired as human beings to focus on, like, what's wrong, what's broken, that's why that we will click on the the, you know, the car crash video versus the somebody just walking through a field video, you know, because we we sort of wanna notice what's wrong. But this approach of of kind of highlighting what's right, what's working, it's not that you, like, ignore problems, but you kind of, like, eclipse them on your way to something better. And if you just think about it, like, in your body from from an energetic perspective, it's like, how does it feel to, like, notice what's wrong? How does that make you show up at work every day versus having a sense of possibility and seeing, you know, all the amazing things that your your colleagues are doing. And and, like, energetically, that makes you be like, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I wanna be part of that. I I I wanna do more of that. And so that's the that's the the essence of what I try to bring.

I'm curious. What are there rituals or things that you encourage organizations to take with them long after your keynote concert is gone to make sure that this stuff becomes part of how they operate?

Yeah. There are there are are many. I mean, every organization that I that I give a keynote to, I I always leave them with a a series of questions that I've I've custom built for them. One of the founders of appreciative inquiry is a guy by the name of David Cooperrider, and he said the seeds of change are planted in the questions that we ask. So I put a lot of emphasis on on the power of questions. So I always give them questions, and I sort of give them a quick crash course on how they might use these questions at, you know, the beginning of their meetings or their gatherings or their strategy sessions and so on and so forth. But even a a a simple idea, like, at the beginning of of a meeting, how do you how do you start with heart? We we're we're often quick at the beginning of a meeting to to, you know, get to the agenda and and get to the details, And we miss the neuroscience that if you want people to show up with their best ideas, to feel connected, to feel innovative, you actually need to create the the the conditions for them to not just be there in their heads, you know, possibly in fight or flight. But we all use words like, oh, listen to your intuition, follow your heart, trust your gut. Like, that that wording is literally speaking to the fact that we have wisdom that lives inside our entire bodies. And if we want to show up and be productive and be connected and all these things, come up with the best ideas, the best business strategies, we actually wanna create the environment where people can show up as their whole selves. Another quote that comes to mind is from a a a friend of mine who unfortunately passed away, but he was a brilliant physician, and he he really researched the the the neuroscience of of of leadership. And this is forgive me for the paraphrase of the quote here, but he he basically said, you know, the purpose of meeting is not to get things done. It's to advance the relationship with the people around us in which the work can get done. And so if we're meeting with each other all the time, but we're not actually advancing our relationship, then we're missing out on the opportunity to do that deeper, better work together. And, you know, that's just one of the ideas that I that I bring forward.

Wow. I really love that. I don't I don't think anybody I don't think very many people listening would say, yeah. That sounds a lot like the meetings I have every day. Mhmm. I think the meetings that we have every day are just very agenda driven, outcome driven. Let's do this a, b, c, d. There's really no space left anymore for that kind of connection and furthering the relationship that you talked about.

Yeah. And I would I would argue, there's a lot like, if if there's something that we could do asynchronously, we should do it asynchronously and then do what we can only do when we're live in you know, with whether in person, like, you know, can be over Zoom or whether it's, you know, in in the physical office. We should take advantage of the fact that we're actually live with each other. And so some of the more checklist y kind of things, we can, you know, put those on the Slack channel and then do the things that allow us to to actually be connected and ideate and be creative and, you know, bounce bounce things off of each other in in the meeting setting. And the thing that's been cool about, you know, not just doing the keynotes, but doing the the facilitation work where I'm with an organization for a longer period of time is I get to see the impacts of this over an extended period of time. And I I I I'm I'm thinking of this guy who walked up to me. I was I was working with a company for a year and a half, and, you know, about eight or nine months in, he he walked up and and, he said, you know, I'm the I'm the head of IT here. And when you first talked about this idea of starting with Hart, I thought, like, there's no way. Like, I'm a ones and zeros guy. My whole team is ones and zeros people. Like, this is never gonna happen. And then he kinda paused, and he he got, like, emotional. He said, look. You know, the truth is when as much as I thought it was impossible, I also thought, man, that would be nice. Like, I've been struggling with stuff with my son at home, and and, you know, it would be nice to just kinda be a little more human with my colleagues. And so even though it felt uncomfortable, I, like, invited us to to do, like, a human check-in at the beginning of our meeting, and then he literally started crying. He said, it's totally changed my team. He said, you know, we we are more connected. We're more productive. We're, like, better at our jobs, and we like our jobs and being together more than ever. And so it's been cool to me to, like, not just have this stuff live as theoretical, but actually see it in in practice.

Yeah. That's the other thing that struck me a bit too, Peter, as you were talking about that. This organizational transformation you talk about eventually requires some personal growth among the leaders that maybe have been a bit old school or, you know, shut off. And and it can only this organizational kinda change can only happen so so far until some of the leaders have those breakthroughs like the IT guy. I've seen that too. And it's, yeah, it's interesting. I don't know that people don't really realize they need it, just like, you know, mister IT guy probably didn't realize they needed until they sort of found themselves in an environment where it was permissible and encouraged, and they just needed a little bit of permission and freedom to think about it differently.

Yeah. One of my favorite testimonials that I ever got was she said, you gave us exactly what we didn't know we needed, which is a hard hard to sell, but, you know, it's great when people, tap into that.

I can't believe we're out of time, Peter. There's, like, another five things that I was dying to talk to you about. Maybe we can have you on again. I feel like we skimmed over, a bunch of different things, but I was just so excited about this. I can't thank you enough. Before we go, I'm wondering what you're most excited about now.

Oh, man. I have a longer answer for that question, and and I know that we're we're at time here. I I I'm super excited to get this music out in the world. Like, that feels really present to me. And then I think kind of alongside that, and this is, you know, through a lot of work in therapy and mindfulness is is I'm super excited about sort of bringing a little bit back more into balance, that that pure artist side of myself with the the the you know, like, I I I kinda wanna harmonize those those parts a little more again, and I I feel like having new music out in the world is is is gonna help enable that. And so, yeah, I'm excited to to to feel a little bit more whole and complete, by by having those different sides of myself, kind of activated again.

Yeah. That's interesting you say that because when you were when I was listening to you talk about it, I thought, wow. It's amazing how balanced. It feels like everything is harmonized between your speaking and these different passions you've got. But I guess when you're in it, it's always a it's always a matter of course correcting. Like, you're never in a period where you think, oh, yeah. Right now, everything feels in balance. Or maybe you do, and then tomorrow, it feels like

Exactly.

You need a course correct again, but that's amazing to hear. So for people that have are interested and wanna learn more, where can they learn more about you, Peter?

Well, we just, relaunched petercatz dot com, so k a t zed dot com, and it sort of is is more representative of, like, my speaking work, and then we're we're we've moved, like, music stuff over to peter Katz music dot com. And, you know, I'm I'm at peter Katz music in all the social places. I I'm sort of hit or miss on social media sometimes, but I'm I'm working on that. And, yeah, depending on when this is released, we're doing a really cool show, on November twenty second at at the the the Allied Music Center Theater in in Massey Hall. So, so that'll be pretty cool.

Oh, man. Massey Hall is my all time favorite. I had my son go and see his first show at Massey Hall maybe a month or so ago, and he just came back and be like, where it's a place that's magic. I'm like, oh, yeah. It's it's a very special place.

Yeah. Well, we're in the smaller space there, but still, yeah. It's I've I've gotten to play on the big stage before,

and it's pretty amazing. That's awesome. And I'll put links to your website and Spotify and all the amazing places where people can find you. I just I just cannot thank you enough for this, Peter. It's been, it's been amazing.

My pleasure. Yeah. Thanks so much, Bob.

The Growth Mixtape podcast with Bob Mathers is produced by Bespoke Projects, music by Jean Michel Walter Cronkite. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to follow and rate us. When you do this, it helps to raise our podcast profile so that more people can find us. If you wanna connect, you can find me on LinkedIn using the link in the show notes.